And, as usual, to remind you all that there are plenty of good reasons for us to be dedicating so much time to the Muscles from Brussels, I present you this non-Van-Damme-related clip of a daring feat of strength, that does not compare with Van Damme's stunning ability to play his own identical twin in a movie:

Roundtable #2

Pete: For this roundtable, we're fast-forwarding from the early successes of JCVD's introduction to Hollywood all the way to the apex and end of his decade-long run as a truly viable action star, with a discussion of Sudden Death (1995), The Quest (1996), and Maximum Risk (1996). Granted, there are plenty of movies between Kickboxer and Sudden Death to discuss, and then the whole span of 1997-2007 before JCVD to discuss, but in a way, talking about these three movies gives us a solid set of bookends within which to discuss Van Damme's various movies. None of these three movies are great, but none of them are terrible either. In fact, I would argue that Maximum Risk was really quite good, and doesn't start too look bad until compared with more recent movies like the Bourne Blah-Blah-Blah trilogy. And with all three of these movies, we get great examples of the fact that, whether or not any skeptics would want to admit it, Van Damme definitely spent some quality time with an acting coach or two during his transition from kung-fu tournament movie star to Hollywood action movie star. The Quest, as a historical epic and tournament movie, is a bit of anomaly, stuck between the straight forward (and based in Pittsburgh!) Sudden Death and the also straight forward (but Van Damme plays identical twins!) Maximum Risk. But there's plenty to talk about for each and across all three of these movies.

If I had to pick one, I'd probably pick Maximum Risk as the best of the three, but I'm guessing you'll pick differently, Nick, since I can imagine you favoring the ambition of The Quest, plus the added bonus of it's involving Frank Dux (who gets co-credit for the story idea with Van Damme (even if that's just because the plot is pretty much just Bloodsport, sixty years earlier). Also, let's check what movies Van Damme was up against... Schwarzenegger, in similar years, was in a comedy phase, making Junior and Jingle All the Way, but also made Eraser. Stephen Seagal made Under Siege 2, Executive Decision, and The Glimmer Man. Stallone made Judge Dredd, Assassins, and Daylight. Who's really in charge here?

Nick:

Actually, my favorite of the three is also Maximum Risk. It really is a proto-Bourne film, keeping most of the mysterious international intrigue aspects but ditching the horrid camera work of the Matt Damon series. I also have to agree that Van Damme's acting is pretty strong. It tends to improve with every film. Imagine how awesome Bloodsport would be if he could turn out the emotion of Maximum Risk? That would be amazing!

I also have to agree that it seems like The Quest was JCVD's attempt to do just that - make a richer and more emotional entertainment experience with the same core concept as Bloodsport. Unfortunately, it's just an oddball. While the tournament is incredible, the character work is bizarre. Van Damme is a Charlie Chaplin meets Bruce Lee vagabond who gets used by a cheeky "pirate" played by Roger Moore... WTF??? Furthermore, Van Damme's character isn't even likable. He's kinda sleazy with his weird Oliver Twist style crew of children thieves. When it comes to fighting, you root for him because you want to see Van Damme kick ass, but there's nothing about the character's personality that makes you want him to win.

As for Sudden Death, it's my least favorite of the three, but probably the most memorable. From my office, I can see the Mellon Civic Arena where the movie was filmed, and I know the other exterior locations. In fact, I'm pretty sure one scene was even filmed on Beeler Street (a small college road where Pete and I used to party).

Looking at those other films coming out during this period, it really appears like Jean-Claude was the most serious action star of the group. He never hit the screwball comedy genre like Arnie, and he didn't make a single sequel until the end of the 90s. Unfortunately, the way I see it, all this good mojo was soon scattered as Double Team and Knock Off absolutely ravaged JCVD's credibility for the rest of the decade.

Pete:

One thing that holds Maximum Risk back is its premise that JCVD had an identical twin brother (which, at this point, I believe, he had already done once). It just seems silly and incredibly vain. Also, how much of the credit for Maximum Risk should go to Ringo Lam? I know he's mostly a Hong Kong (I think) movie director, but also one of his movies was very influential on Tarantino in Resevoir Dogs.

The more I come back to thinking about The Quest, the less I like it. One thing about tournament movies in general is that they pretty much never feature fighting that's as good as the best kung-fu action movies, and it's very difficult to maintain interest in between the fights. Kickboxer does it the same way Rocky IV does, by focusing on the training and personal growth and the larger-than-life enemy. Bloodsport does it by mostly just having a lot of fighting, some entertaining scenes with an awesome sidekick, and sprinklings of a love interest. The Quest is more or less the same plot as Bloodsport (apparently, the only way that JCVD or Dux could imagine a woman caring about a fighting tournament was by having her be a reporter), but with all kinds of bloated filler and pseudo-adventure plot. Rather than action movies like Maximum Risk or Sudden Death, I think it was The Quest that represents more of JCVD's downfall than anything.

Are there any biographies available of Van Damme? One of us should read up on it. I was talking to a friend who worked in movies a bit, and who actually claimed to have one time worked with Van Damme's stunt double, who hated Van Damme for ruining both of their careers. Accusations of drug problems, vanity, and failure to meet commitments abounded. I can definitely imagine Dux and Van Damme doing a ton of blow and making out with each other in their minds while conceiving The Quest. I'll be curious to see Van Damme's late nineties escapades to see exactly how far he falls.

Sudden Death is definitely the most memorable, Nick, even though it's not great. Partially because it was conceived by the owner of the Pens as a way to advertise for his team, which is kind of awesome. But that's just it. JCVD, more than anything else is known for his bloated non-success movies, with maybe an afterthought for the fact that Bloodsport and Kickboxer were really pretty good. Did Van Damme ever make a true martial arts action movie?

Nick:

I'm not sure what you mean by "true kung-fu movie." Give me some examples!

I can't believe how down everyone is on The Quest. On A Podcast with Ross and Nick #24, we discussed this film and Ross is really down on it just like you. All I'm saying is that The Quest looks like an Oscar contender compared to Double Team, Knock Off, and Legionnaire. I thought The Quest was hokey here and there (and certainly bizarre -- a street fighting stilt mime stows away on a cargo liner and gets sold into martial arts slavery by a flamboyant pirate), but enjoyable. I also thought that the fighting tournament was sweet as hell.

Ringo Lam was probably a big part of the quality of Maximum Risk. He did In Hell, which was a solid Van Damme flick. He also did Replicant, which I hear is great... but the movie just arrived to my house from Netflix and the DVD was cracked in half (!!!) so I have to wait until they reship it. In fact, I was on a waiting list to receive Replicant in the first place, so I'm kind of worried that there is no replacement copy...

Still, I thought Jean-Claude was really good in Maximum Risk. But would I rewatch the movie? Hell no!

That leads me to an interesting point: which Van Damme films have the highest rewatchability? I think a movie that can be rewatched -- regardless of "quality" -- is a great indication of a compelling and memorable story. In my mind, that easily places Bloodsport at the top. I've watched Timecop a few times now, and while it drags here and there, it still maintains some fun. I've seen Street Fighter a few times in the past few years and I always get a kick out of it. I'm looking forward to rewatching JCVD, though I'm dreading its rewatchability factor... will it be high or low? Other Van Damme movies I would willingly rewatch include Lionheart, Kickboxer, and maybe Nowhere to Run. I would rewatch The Quest, but just forward it to the tournament scenes. In Hell definitely has rewatchability -- but the content is so visceral and violent that it would be hard to just pop it on and let it play in the background.

Pete:

I guess I mean an action movie where most of the action/fighting is in some kind of martial-arts-esque mode, beyond just the kick-and-punch of something like Maximum Risk. Jackie Chan's early movies, for instance. Or Jet Li's. Or Tony Jaa's The Protector (one of the best ever that I've seen, for it's Muay Thai-based fighting). To me, in Sudden Death, Van Damme may as well be Stallone or anyone else that can look worried and throw a punch.

As for The Quest, Nick, I think you've just got a higher tolerance for camp than most people. I recall how I felt like you almost felt as though I had betrayed you by not liking X-Men Origins: Wolverine; it's similar here: at some point, The Quest crosses this line where the good (but not great) fighting scenes in the tournament don't make up for all the rubbish that surrounds them.

I think I'll have a better opinion on the rewatchability once I've seen more of Van Damme's movies--I'm way behind you on that front--but Bloodsport is the most obviously rewatchable. I plan on rewatching JCVD before the end of all this Van Damme discussion, but I too dread that it won't be as cool a second time around.

This Week in That Guy #1: Paul Ben-Victor

I watch my fair share of movies and TV shows, and I often catch myself playing that viewer's game, where you recognize some actor or actress on screen, and spend the rest of the show/movie scratching your head and trying to remember what else you've seen them in. "Who was that guy?" you say, to your friends, and then you continue to speculate as to who they are and what other things you've seen them in. That Guys are oftentimes that guy either on TV, making lots of guest appearances on all sorts of shows, or character actors in movies, showing up in small-to-medium parts in all kinds of movies. Character actors are great--I tend to like these "real" actors more than the method-types that seem to garner so much praise, so I don't mean to belittle any of these That Guys by labeling them as such. There are much worse guys to be, and way worse kinds of That Guys to be.

The inaugural That Guy (and fellow--to Nick, Neal, and myself--Carnegie Mellon alum) is Paul Ben-Victor, who showed up most recently, for me, in Season Two of The Wire, which I watched on DVD back in the spring. As soon as he showed up on screen, he had me wondering, who is that guy? and trying to remember what else I'd seen him in. Let's meet him, via YouTube and (apparently) ExploreTalent.com:

That Guy

At the time of watching The Wire I realized that he was the guy from John from Cincinnati, the other not-nearly-as-good-as-the-wire HBO show. But you might also recognize him from True Romance.

This Week in Not That Guy #1: Brian Cox

You recognize Brian Cox. For instance, he's that guy that was the chief of the highway patrol in Super Troopers:

Not a That Guy

But if you think he's a That Guy, because of his easily recognizable presence in so many movies, you'd be wrong. Because he's Brian Cox, and everyone knows his name, and everyone thinks he's awesome (especially since the first couple X-Men movies). He's also awesome in Rushmore, and The Minus Man. Awesome actor, but too awesome, despite his numerous roles, to be that guy.

Why JCVD? I think Nick and I both reveal our motivation in this first discussion, because it certainly relates to the still-recent movie JCVD, where Van Damme plays a washed up version of himself. We'll certainly talk about this more when we get to the actual roundtable about JCVD, so I won't say much now, but part of this exploration, to me, is about learning how, exactly, and how well JCVD earned the ability to do self-parody of JCVD. Also, it's about broadening our horizons here at Culturology, since we've been notoriously pro-Schwarzenegger and pro-Statham as action heroes, but need to get to the slightly different genre of kung-fu action, where for a time at least, JCVD reigned supreme (at least in terms of Hollywood movies). Also, JCVD is often overlooked, as that guy that did the splits all the time, and the guy that wasn't Steven Seagal or Stallone or even Chuck Norris. But to remind you all that the kung-fu wave of the late-80s early 90s produced plenty of more terrible fare, I present you with this scene from 1993's Undefeatable:

Roundtable #1

Nick:

I'm not exactly sure where to start. Thing is, I think we both generally agree that Bloodsport is superior to Kickboxer. However, maybe we disagree about the WHYs and HOWs of its superiority... at least I hope we do (because that would provide extra dramatic tension).

My general feeling is this: Bloodsport is an amazing cultural document with a fascinating history, while Kickboxer is fun martial arts film with a solid training sequence and strong final battle.

If I could draw parallels to other films, I would compare the feeling I get from Kickboxer to that of The Karate Kid, Part II, while Bloodsport feels more like Enter the Dragon. In my mind, those parallels run fairly deep - Bloodsport is a gritty "street style" film in many ways, a descendant of the Bruce Lee school of martial arts film making. It involves disparate fighters coming together for an international tournament of questionable legality. Kickboxer is more about personal vendetta and self-improvement, similar to the entire Karate Kid franchise. In particular, Kickboxer has echoes of The Karate Kid, Part II in both its final battle and in its "a small town is being bullied by local thugs so they send an outsider to defend it" conflict.

In this sense - as bizarre as it may sound - I see Bloodsport as a trendsetter, while I view Kickboxer as a perfection of its genre. It's hard for me to pinpoint exactly why I feel that way, but that's my general impression.

Pete:

I do agree that Bloodsport is the more satisfying movie. Are you calling it an "amazing cultural document" because it's based on a true story--or true life--of Frank Dux, or because of the position it holds relative to awesome fighting tournament movies? I think both aspects are legitimately interesting, especially since many of Dux's claims, apparently, came under fire, in terms of what kind of achievements he ever really gained. It certainly does owe quite a bit to Enter the Dragon, given the best-fighters-from-around-the-world-all-fight-in-this-one-tournament style, except it lacks anything that really makes a hero out of Dux the way that Bruce Lee is a hero at a larger level for overthrowing the tyrant that runs the tournament/compound that Lee infiltrates. But I think that Bloodsport expects us to perceive Van Damme as a hero of equal stature to Lee. It seems to me that this is premised on the fact that Van Damme is white (Belgian, and one of the great things that both these movies share is the unnecessary explanations of why Van Damme has his accent).

Both Kickboxer (which actually goes so far as to have Van Damme's character hailed as "the White Warrior") and Bloodsport, being movies from the late '80s, have a post-Vietnam flavor to them, dealing as much (allegorical, I suppose) with PTSD as with the actual violence of the war. Hence you have the white characters heading to the distant Orient to reclaim some lost manhood or dominance. This is also why, to me, the sidekick character in Bloodsportt is more interesting than the brother character in Kickboxer, since the brother just gets his ass kicked, whereas the buddy in Bloodsport actually seemed to be beating Chong-Li before his macho attitude and swagger finally opened him up to defeat. And, since you bring it up, Nick, the Karate Kid movies also deal quite a bit with post-Vietnam issues, especially Part III, where two Vietnam veterans do all they can to ruin the life of an 18 year old kid (which is, in my book, pretty much completely awesome).

For me personally, as much as Bloodsport is more enjoyable, Kickboxer holds a special position because it was a mythical movie for me during my childhood. I was aware of its existence for a long time, but never allowed to watch it (until I was old enough that my parents didn't try to stop me from watching R-rated movies)--but even then, for whatever reasons, I never watched it until very recently. But I very specifically recall, especially because I liked the original Karate Kid trilogy so much, that there was this movie out there, called Kickboxer, which was just the most awesome and brutal movie there ever was. It's not really all that brutal (paralyzation and rape aside), and the Muay Thai choreography ain't that great (especially compared to the more recent extremely awesome Muay Thai movies from Tony Jaa (I don't think I've ever seen more (simulated) broken bones in a movie than there are in The Protector)), but it really is an awesome movie, both for its own time and for the ages.

Nick:

My hyperbole-esque "amazing cultural document" line was referring to Bloodsport's place among awesome fighting tournament stories at large. Without a doubt, it was a direct influence on Street Fighter and the entire rich birth of fighting video games (that's not to say that Enter the Dragon wasn't as much of an influence -- just a different type of influence because Bloodsport was a contemporary of video games and even has that awesome arcade game sequence in it).

Speaking of which... how meta is that whole thing? Van Damme plays a tournament fighter in Bloodsport, wherein he plays a fighting game as his first real competition in the film. Then the arcade smash Street Fighter II comes out a few years later and totally runs off the Bloodsport-inspired resurgence of martial arts tournament stories. Then Van Damme actually stars in the Street Fighter movie a few years after that. Then, to tie-in with the film, there's an arcade game released with Van Damme's face and body literally in the role of Guile. That really takes the whole thing full circle.

Anyway, to address another one of your points, I think the Vietnam themes in both Bloodsport and Kickboxer are there, but I see them differently. Simply by casting a European man in both those roles, it completely changes the meaning. While the scripts may have tried to address PTSD and other such Vietnam themes more directly, the actual films don't play on those themes in quite the same way with JCVD in the lead. Though his characters have American connections in both films, he himself is of European origin, and thus the concept of the "white characters heading to the distant Orient to reclaim some lost manhood or dominance" is transformed into something else. In fact, the "best friend" characters in both films - Ray Jackson and Winston Taylor - are really the characters attempting to reclaim some sort of macho manhood or dominance. And things don't really work out smoothly for them. Instead, Van Damme becomes the cultural wild card for the audience -- he's not from the country where the story takes place, but he's also not from America (or, at least, he doesn't represent the traditional "American man"). I see Van Damme's characters in these films being less about some sort of post-Vietnam white manhood and more about cultural exchange. Maybe I'm wrong about that because I'm looking back on stories from 20 years ago and commenting on them now. But I also don't think that particular Vietnam war theme is as direct as you make it out to be (Rambo and 80s Chuck Norris seem to do a better job at that notion of reclaiming cultural dominance for the American white male).

As for significance, Kickboxer is definitely more culturally quotable. The Hot Shots franchise even parodied the final Kickboxer battle in full. But I think that Bloodsport is the more revolutionary of the two, especially considering that the film was shelved for years until Van Damme got it re-edited and eventually released. The Dux thing is cool, but that's only a part of what makes the movie, to me, a cultural landmark in action and adventure cinema. I mean, when was the last time a low budget action movie was able to struggle its way to the top? Comedy, drama, even horror - but almost never an action.

Pete:

Speaking of meta, have you seen JCVD? I think it's actually a pretty solid movie, not great, but certainly entertaining for Van Damme's portrayal of himself as a washed up former star.

I agree with you about the Vietnam stuff; I think certainly it's Ray Jackson and Winston Taylor that are the "macho" straight-up Americans set to conquer. But I don't think the writer would have bothered with the accent explanations if it weren't to clarify that Van Damme's characters ARE American. Think of Arnold Schwarzenegger: he's always just an American tough, with an apple pie kind of name, and his accent is just ignored. So yes, Van Damme, is a different kind of American, but it's crucial that he be seen as American (from both the writer's and the viewers' perspectives). In Kickboxer you see it because Van Damme has respect for Muay Thai where Taylor doesn't, in the early sequence where Van Damme tries to talk Taylor out of fighting. And then Van Damme goes on to learn that style, so yes in a way it is about cultural exchange; but, given that once Van Damme becomes "Asian" by learning their fighting, he is hailed by the crowds as "the white warrior" which still has implications for East/West relations. And yes, there are better examples of the post-Vietnam thing to be found in Chuck Norris (and actually, I should admit, I've never seen any of the Rambo movies the whole way through), but if not explicitly about the war, there's still some kind of Orientalism afoot here, in terms of Van Damme's needing to learn the ways of the Mystic Orient in order to conquer it.

That's a good point about Bloodsport's low budget. It's hard to imagine another kind of movie that could meet similar success, since they really only needed a handful of sets to make that movie. Especially when you compare it to higher budget versions of similar plots--essentially, the video game movies of Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat (it's been since college since I've seen either of these, but I feel like I would defend them both, and I know you love Street Fighter)--the more costly movies really don't do it any better.

Did Van Damme himself ever do any better than Bloodsport or Kickboxer?

Nick:

Yeah, I have seen JCVD. It's what got me started on my Jean-Claude Van Damme marathon. I think he's definitely self-aware and actually pretty sick of the Hollywood entertainment machine, and I find that refreshing. I don't think Arnold ever quite reached that point.

So far, I've watched all of Van Damme's catalog up through 1996 or 1997. None of those films have reached the heights of Bloodsport or Kickboxer. But that's as a whole film -- in general, his acting seems to improve with just about every movie I see (except for the huge dip when he made the Dennis Rodman team-up, Double Team, and the Rob Schneider team-up, Knock Off). I just recently watched The Quest, which is sort of like JCVD's big budget version of a historical Bloodsport. While the movie itself isn't as much fun as Bloodsport, it does have some finer moments (including excellent character work by Van Damme). The actual tournament fight in The Quest is probably perfects upon the concept behind Bloodsport, but it stills lacks some of the original's suspense and lo-fi charm. Interestingly, his best films following Bloodsport and Kickboxer seem to be complete departures from the tournament genre, those being Nowhere to Run and Maximum Risk.

Stagecoach, Tootsie, Sullivan's Travels, Vertigo, and Raiders of the Lost Ark are on deck in our countdown of the American Film Institute 100 Years... 100 Movies list. We also talk about the YouTube hit, David After Dentist, as well as Bosom Buddies, George Lucas, Veronica Lake, and tons more.

So what do I do? I'm into stand up, comedies, foreign, Almodovar (homeboy is in a class by himself), not-horror, superhero movies, drama, TV stuff, remakes, and hell - I even watch romcoms. I'm not into super old stuff - but I can appreciate it.

I need to re-up my queue, and QUICK! I am calling on all AudioShockers for help.

Then, after the end theme, the guys discuss some shocking casting news for The Last Airbender - Dev Patel is in as Zuko. As usual, the casting makes no sense and Neal is revoking M. Night Shyamalan's Chaat Stand Pass.