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25 Responses to “A Podcast with Ross and Nick #55 - Guro Thrasher”

1. 1 kaylie
   June 30, 2010 at 12:32 pm

   totally unexpected, but really awesome discussion about guro. Nick, you perfectly verbalized my thoughts/feelings on the subject better than i think i ever could have.

   since Henry Poole is available on Netflix to watch instantly, i will take a crack at the challenge...though i make no promises. XD

2. 2 ross
   June 30, 2010 at 12:41 pm

   i'm on my mom's computer and i can't remember the log in URL.

   Kaylie: what part of what Nick said captured your own feelings? like was there a particular statement or something? i agree, too, although i don't really remember anything either of us said but i remember feeling that Nick and Justique put it way better than i was putting it. XD

   i'd also like to clarify that while this could be applied to ero guro in general, i was specifically talking about the work of Hiroaki Samura, which that link goes to.

3. 3 kaylie
   June 30, 2010 at 1:54 pm

   yeah yeah, i get that this particular podcast addresses mainly the guro artwork by Samura in the links, i should've clarified that. although it was some of the most disturbing guro i've ever seen (thanks, Ross!) due to the realism and the careful rendering, i still tend to lump all guro together in my mind, even the sillier stuff like you were talking about. as Justique said, it just makes me sad when i see it.

   i think what Nick said that really hit home for me was how guro seems to tap into this really dark, fantasy place that goes far beyond misogyny, and is about power struggles and seems to have these undercurrents of flat-out rage and hatred, and oppressing/destroying female sexuality. i've always known that guro gives me the heebie jeebies like no other kind of internet niche porn, but i couldn't figure out exactly why (beyond the obvious violence and sexism), or rather, how to explain it to others. guro also both fascinates and frightens me because it's also sort of a rorschach test or something, like i've seen people who are absolutely horrified by non-violent, average furry porn but find guro funny. which i guess is another layer of the guro genre that sickens/saddens me, is that a lot of people must be into this, or there wouldn't be so much of it. it's like, an act or sentiment can be really horrifying in and of itself, but sometimes peoples' reactions to such a sentiment or act can be far more troubling.

   anyway. sorry for the rant!

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4. 4 nick marino
   June 30, 2010 at 2:32 pm

   i was so tired last night by the time we did this recording that i barely even remember the conversation!

5. 5 ross
   June 30, 2010 at 6:59 pm

   Kaylie: ah, yeah, i remember that now, i like the way Nick put it, too. i still don't know how to feel about this, it's really hard since Samura's one of my favorite artists ever, i don't think it's much different than finding out your favorite artist draws child porn on the side, not in that he'd be victimizing actual real children or that he's EVIL, but the drawings are enough, you know? i'm not trying to police what people can draw or what turns them on sexually, but can i really separate this and still read Samura's comic or appreciate his art? i think i could convince myself to do it but i'd still remember this stuff and the hardcore misogyny, and "sexual destruction/oppression" as Nick puts it, that the author apparently harbors. SIGH.

   hate my life

6. 6 kaylie
   June 30, 2010 at 11:51 pm

   Ross: yeah, i forgot to mention that, that i also enjoyed the discussion you brought up about whether or not you can still enjoy (with a clear conscience) an artist's work after discovering they stand for or support views you really don't agree with. i get where you're coming from with Samura's Blade of the Immortal stuff vs. his guro stuff.

   i myself started reading BotI a while back, but i was probably too young at the time to handle it, and had to stop reading it because of all the ultra-violence, and how the women were treated. but i get where you're coming from and have dealt with similar conflicts myself, though less extreme. usually like "i really like this guy's artwork, but he always depicts women as sex toys or evil harpies." i guess there are many things that influence people as artists, both negatively and positively, and sometimes some of both can stem from the same source. :/

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7. 7 ross
   July 1, 2010 at 1:37 am

   Kaylie: yeahhhh it's tough. another thing why it's so hard for me is that there's such a disconnect, for me anyway, in my interpretation, between Samura's guro stuff and Blade of the Immortal: in Blade i always found the female characters really refreshingly respectfully-treated, they're all written really well and are great characters, i think i said that in the podcast too, can't remember. the book is even centered on a girl who drives the story and she's almost non-sexual in her baggy kimono. there's a part where she has to get undressed at a border station so they can see if she's carrying any weapons or whatever, but it's not sexy at all, it's this super tense, nailbiting scene, like the opposite of how every other comic would probably have it be this titillating sequence where the girl slowly sheds her clothes. but yeah, like there's no T&A or "sexy camera angles" or even any nudity, really, mostly it's the lead male guy, Manji, who ends up hot and shirtless and mangled (but then he heals 'cause he's immortal, heh). omg and later in the story there's this other girl, Doa, who is just awesommmmme -_-

   there is rape in the story and you know me, i hate rape shit, but it's really tastefully done, it's all off-camera and it's not used in the typical way where it's a motivational impetus for a male character to take action to avenge the woman, or even as an impetus for the woman herself to take action, it's shit that happens in this brutal, near-lawless feudal setting and i found it well-done and authentic. there is other female abuse, but it's stuff perpetuated by the villains and it's presented as awful and not sexualized at all, no wounded women falling on the ground and oh no her shirt came off or good thing she fell in the dirt while in such a sultry pose, it was saying more about the villain who's doing it and how terrible and crazy he is. i always dug it because it was presented the same way as the violence done to the male characters was: in neither case was it sexualized, and in both cases it was brutal and uncompromising. equality in violence.

   anyway, that's also why i found this stuff so shocking and confusing, it was like finding out that somebody you thought was on your team is actually a double agent working for the other side. it's like if it turned out that Splinter was, all along, secretly raising the Turtles not as a family or to avenge his master's death, but because he actually HATES TURTLES AND HE'S GOING TO TURN THEM INTO SOUP AND THAT WAS HIS PLAN ALL ALONG!!!!

   okay maybe it's not that extreme.

8. 8 ross
   July 1, 2010 at 5:24 pm

   ...did i scare everybody off? did i totally put the kibosh on the discussion? am i trying too hard to force you guys into caring about this as much as i do? XD

9. 9 nick marino
   July 1, 2010 at 11:12 pm

   didn't scare me off. i find the convo interesting, but i kinda already said everything i had to say about it. the guy obviously has some sort of sick, violent fetish. i guess i'm glad he's displaying it thru art and not thru physical violence (that we know of). but i have no interest in looking at it.

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10. 10 ross
    July 2, 2010 at 12:23 am

    yeah, okay, i'm done.

11. 11 nick marino
    July 2, 2010 at 7:48 am

    not trying to be a @#$% though! i was just trying to contribute, but in rereading what i wrote, man, i do sound like a @#$%.

12. 12 kaylie
    July 2, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    i care about it, Ross. i had to have several conversations with people about the subject and work through my own feelings about it, heh. but i'm the type of person where if something really bothers me, i can't just ignore it and go one with my life, but i have to discuss it or think about it a lot and figure out exactly WHY it bothers me, and what that means to me and how i view the world because of it. blah.

    i just kinda didn't know how to verbalize my feelings/ideas anymore. and it seems your main dilemma is being a big fan of someone who you late find out draws stuff and possibly holds opinions about something that you really can't get behind, and how conflicting this can be when it clouds your view of all of his work, even the stuff you like. while i understand and feel you on this to a degree, i'm not really sure i have advice or whatever on how to handle it. it can be pretty jarring. it's kind of a personal thing you have to work out for yourself, i guess. i've found myself in similar dilemmas before, though nothing as extreme, and over time i found i could still enjoy certain aspects of an artist's artwork while still disliking their personal stances or other work. but in something this severe, i'm not sure i'd be able to. but that's just me. blah, blah, blah.

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13. 13 ross
    July 2, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    Nick: haha, no, you're fine. this is more just a personal thing for me, i'm not trying to force you guys into discussing this, it's totally about me because Hiroaki Samura is (was?) my favorite artist and his book Blade of the Immortal is/was my favorite comic. so it's like.. Nick and Kaylie, whoever you favorite artists are and then if they didn't happen to also draw your favorite comic (since they're often separate, like your favorite comic might not have been drawn by your favorite artist, etc.), combine them and then imagine you find out the creator has been drawing rape comics on the side. it's easy to write artists off, like just don't read their shit anymore, done, i do it all the time, but it's tougher when it's your favorite. i'm like grasping at straws trying to explain away and justify Samura's guro work and his rapey Bradherley's Coach comic, but i just can't, really, heh. like i keep saying he's free to do whatever he wants, whatever, but it's kind of devastating for me, like i just don't want to read comics at all anymore if i can't read the one i love the most done by the creator i love the most.

    anyway, yeah, it's totally a personal thing but i just wanted to get it out there. there isn't anything else to say about it, you're right, Nick. i talked to some people on my LJ with differing opinions on this material but even so, it is what it is.

14. 14 kaylie
    July 2, 2010 at 2:18 pm

    yeah, for me, i guess it would be like finding out Daniel Clowes (though he has slightly offended me at certain points in his career, but nothing that heinous) or you, Ross, or Junko Mizuno turned out to draw comics or pin-ups about raping and mutilating women and children or something. i'd just kind of be like "fuck comics. my life is a lie." T_T

15. 15 ross
    July 2, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    Kaylie: haha, yeah, i totally feel like "fuck comics, my life is a lie." heh. i've been reading Samura's comic since the first book came out in English in like 1997 or something and i have every volume since then and counting and i even did a project on him for my comics history class in college, heh. now it's like... blahhh. i mean he's still amazing but when i look at his stuff now all i can think about is the rape and shit. i'll probably stop reading his stuff and get rid of my books, but i'll get over it. :)

    i draw bestiality porn, though, is that okay with you, Kaylie? ;)

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16. 16 kaylie
    July 2, 2010 at 11:16 pm

    yeah, that's cool. i recently discovered i'm into slinky mutant girls getting it on with Adrien Brody, so who am i to judge? ;)

17. 17 nick marino
    July 3, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    ooooo for some reason i didn't catch that Samura was your absolute favorite. hmmmm if Chris Giarrusso drew guro? i dunno, i mean, it's such a strong contrast between who he is and what he does, it's almost impossible for me to imagine. i guess i would be in total shock for a couple days, and then i'd have to make a decision. can't say what i'd decide. but probably i'd have to drop his stuff. man, i feel really fortunate knowing that i don't have to make that decision!

    i guess the best equivalent for real would be if Claremont turned out to be a raging bigot, which, again, luckily, i don't have to worry about. but hypothetically speaking, i don't think i'd be able to disown his work...

    in times like this, i think back to Adaptation. there's a scene where the two brothers are discussing the way the dying one loved this girl that always made fun of/hated him. and he says something that i think works to rationalize tough situations like this. it's along the lines of "no matter how much she hated me, she couldn't take away my love for her. it was my love, and whether or not she wanted it, that didn't change the fact that it was something i created and owned." that's kinda like your love for BotI. Samura put that art out there. he made it, but YOU made your own personal interpretation of the art. you made it mean something to your life, not Samura. and whatever else he does, it can't take away your love of the work because it's your interpretation of the work, not Samura's. just because he made other art you disagree with, it doesn't invalidate your appreciation of his other work. it just changes your view of the creator, not necessarily the creation.

    then again, Adaptation also has the great scene where Chris Carter's character says something like, "for ten years, i collected rare fish. i spent every day with fish. and then one day i woke up and i said 'fuck fish' and i never put another toe in the water again." so that's another possible approach. just reinvent Ross without BotI as part of your life.

18. 18 Andrew Kilian
    July 6, 2010 at 1:36 am

    Wow! I know I'm late to the party, but I just had to comment on the Guro. There's a lot of different feelings that come up when you look at stuff like this. This is a touchy subject so if I can ask for the benefit of the doubt I'd appreciate it. Art is about communication and evoking a reaction. Some of the images I can recognize as an expression of pure male lust, the compulsion to just "get yours", but other images really evoke such a feeling of grief, horror. You really receive a powerful reaction to it. It's almost like on the evening news when you seem some great tragedy that you're powerless to intervene.

    Knowing an artist and following them as a fan (or whatever) means you put a certain amount of trust and faith that they're not going to pull the rug out from underneath you (though sometimes that's what makes a great story). If there's an artist who is a hero of mine I trust that there's something he's trying to say that I'll get. Some of these images you truly identify with the victim's suffering.

    A lot of these seem to be less about misogyny and more about capturing and transmitting the emotional misery of the scenario. Though the figures may seem supple, they don't really seem erotic or fetishistic. I think it has more to do with men having a preference to draw women (especially because people tend to empathize with pretty women; "halo effect") so the viewer can experience something of the despair that they're feeling (motor neurons). Unless someone is a true sicko I doubt anyone is masturbating to this.

    What's more likely to me is the viewer is thrown emotionally off center and trying to come to grips with the feelings that it evokes. What is powerful to me is that some images I feel certain about what I'm seeing and feeling; the moral judgments I come to are obvious. Others are so... outre that I don't know what I feel other than shock perhaps. For an artist to be able to capture that complexity and transmit it to the viewer is really something. To be able to challenge the viewer to try to reconcile their sexual/moral set point with each image is really engaging. Sometimes depending on what part of the image you look at you feel something completely different. At points you're captivated by the lighting, the realism and suppleness of the flesh. At others you yourself wince in pain from the biting rope and then ultimately feel misery or profound sadness when you see the expressions on their faces. It's almost as you eye travels around the page you experience a different reaction until you pull back and take it all in and devolve into confusion as you try to reconcile all the smaller pieces you've seen into a whole.

    Though this sort of art may be challenging and tragic, I don't think it means this guy is some misogynistic pederast.

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19. 19 nick marino
    July 6, 2010 at 8:47 am

    @AK interesting view on it, and definitely a POV i appreciate, even if a disagree. personally, while i find your perspective compelling and worth debate, i still find the visceral evidence of the art to overshadow the intellectual notions you introduced into the discussion:

    - http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=545261

    - http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=26671

    i could definitely envision a scenario where guro art does express the contrast between extreme violence and gentle flesh, the horrors of physical pain and the downward spiral of emotional pain. but to me, Samura's guro doesn't do that. if that's the intent, i find it to be an interesting artistic endeavor. but i still think that his end product is violent, overly indulgent, and disturbingly fetishistic.

    i chose the examples above because they, to me, do not speak to anything metaphorically poetic. to me, they speak to violence, shame, pain, and more violence.

    EDIT: i should add this in response to your argument that some images are obvious while others evoke a more complex set of feelings. so yeah, i picked a couple examples that may seem obviously indulgent, but the problem i'm having is finding images out of these four pages that don't fit that description. i can't find some that are obviously disturbing and others that provoke thought and reflection -- i can only see obviously disturbing.

20. 20 ross
    July 6, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    Andrew: i think your points are good but i think you also have to take into account that for some people, misery and agony themselves, or even misogyny, ARE the turn-on, and a lot of guro work seems to suggest that to me. regarding Samura's, i WANT to believe that it's some evocation or transmission or whatever of extreme emotion and pain and that's the artistic goal, and even if that is part of it, i can't buy that that's the whole thing because i still feel that the images are sexual. again, going back to the aspect where a lot of the violence centers on the women's breasts, vaginas, that sort of thing, and most of the situations are sexually-charged involving dildos, penetration, bondage, and rape (i know rape isn't about sex, but it's being presented as relating to sex in some of these drawings). so i feel like there's this conflation of sexual pleasures of the flesh with emotional misery and pain, like that's the whole package right there, i don't think you can reasonably separate them when you take these drawings as a group. i do think that 2-3 of them, like the portrait/bust shot ones, if they were the only existing pieces then i could certainly believe they were meant to have purely an emotional response/intent or whatever because in themselves they aren't sexual at all, they're heartbreaking and amazing. but then when you take those in context with all the rest of the work, the vaginal fish hooks and so forth and Samura's Bradherley's Coach comic, they take on a different meaning. i'm still really confused about the situation because some aspects of Samura's work are awesome and progressive while others are just terrible and then even more is a weird combination of both and it's just obtuse and confusing, combined with the fact that i'm also trying to cling to his work because i love it so much.

    and, again, i know i keep saying this, but i'm not trying to say that Samura is EVIL or that he's actually plotting women's doom or that i wish to play thought police or say that he can't draw what he wants to draw. and i'm also not saying that guro work or pornography/erotica/whatever can't be complex or evoke complex emotions or be created with complex feelings in mind.

    Nick: i guess i don't have an ABSOLUTE #1 favorite artist but Samura is way up there, like in the top 3, which are always changing around, and i've been reading/buying his book for over 12 years, longer and more faithfully than any other long-running book. i'm still struggling with what to do, like i don't want to be this uptight dipshit who can't just enjoy something on a regular, normal human level, but sometimes you just have to draw a line, i guess. i have my giant stack of Blade of the Immortal books piled up, i took them out of the shelf along with a big purge where i'm ditching other books too, but they're just sitting there waiting for a decision, haha. not sure if i'm going to get rid of them. i might ditch them and just hang on to the artbook as a memento. T_T

    some things i DID ditch were my Mad Max DVDs, though, after the latest Mel Gibson debacle!!! right in the trash! XD

21. 21 nick marino
    July 6, 2010 at 5:32 pm

    YES! down with Gibson! the guy is a bigot^bigot

    EDIT: SWEET! my HTML worked.

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22. 22 ross
    July 6, 2010 at 5:59 pm

    your HTML? what's with the superscript "bigot" i don't get it.

    I'LL ALWAYS LOVE YOU, TINA TURNER

23. 23 Andrew Kilian
    July 8, 2010 at 11:03 am

    ... and Tina Turner loves you Ross, "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!"

24. 24 nick marino
    July 9, 2010 at 8:15 am

    @Ross it's exponential bigot, like bigot to the bigot power.

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1. 1 The Comics Podcast Network » A Podcast with Ross and Nick #55
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