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12 Responses to “A Podcast with Ross and Nick #27 - Killing Realism”

1. 1 Andrew Kilian
   December 9, 2009 at 5:02 pm

   Ross' argument that the no killing rule is arrogance applies also to killing. If you appoint yourself as judge jury and executioner that is even more arrogant. Also the Somalia example is not apt, because that's a state manufactured genocide of one side eliminating the other.

   The larger point of murder as self defense creeps into social engineering.

   The characters have to be accurate in regards to their mythology. An iconic hero is not supposed to kill. An Antihero is supposed to kill. It's context. You wouldn't expect Donald Duck to kill Daisy, execution style and rape and her dump her dead body because it doesn't fit that characters mythology. You're putting a round peg in a square hole. Some characters aren't meant to kill or even psychologically designed too. If Superman is put into a position where he kills fans would insist that he go through the same shellshock that soldiers who return from Iraq go through.

   The realistic thing about Watchman is the idea of Blowback and Manufacturing Public Opinion. The dirty politics & psychology is realistic.

   In regards to comics it's about the suspension of disbelief within that genre.

   The Bishop comment is hilarious!

2. 2 kaylie
   December 9, 2009 at 6:08 pm

   "You can't train that penguin with a missle!!" XD LOL best quote ever.

   This one was really good guys, got me thinking about how I feel on the subject. Keep it up!

3. 3 ross
   December 9, 2009 at 11:01 pm

   Andrew:
   i can't remember exactly what i said and i'm not about to listen to my own podcast, heh, but i didn't mean that a rigid no-killing rule is arrogant or conceited, just that it's potentially a fragile, false morality. saying "i will always kill" is the same thing, because you don't know that you'll always do ANYthing or be capable of always doing that, because you don't know what will happen or what will drive you, that's all i was trying to say. i realize i was super confusing, haha.

   as for the Somalia thing, it was simply an example of a place with lots of violence and no legal consequences, the first place that popped into my head. and this is tangential, not to derail anything, but it sounds like you're thinking of Sudan, not Somalia. Somalia isn't a manufactured genocide, it's a country torn apart by civil war, islamic extremists, and pirates, pushed into lawlessness and an actual split (northern Somalia became its own country).

   i'm also not saying ALL heroes should at some point kill, or characters like the Punisher should suddenly NOT kill, not every character is the same or should be the same, just that applying that "heroes don't kill" rule across the board, or any rule, restricts and warps the stories and characters. that's all i was saying. the characters we're talking about are just licensing products and formulas anyway, like Nick was saying, so on the other hand expecting them to behave like realistic people is also stupid. XD

4. 4 zach
   December 10, 2009 at 2:09 am

   Andrew,

   Who says an iconic hero doesn't kill? Is Beowulf an iconic hero? Police officers? Soldiers? The question isn't "what if Superman killed?" it's, "Is Wolverine a hero?" or more generally, "Is a good person who kills an evil person in order to stop an evil act a hero?"

   If both actions (killing and sparing an evil life) are arrogance then why prefer one to the other? Why the need to draw an arbitrary division between one and the other?

   I also think you may be confusing Somalia with Sudan. Although Somalia has been a location of long-standing civil war, which you could define as state sponsored genocide if you stretched the definitions enough, the pirate controlled portions are famously lawless and are a kill-or-be-killed proposition. Regardless, whether or not the physical location is right or wrong doesn't address the point of a pacifist being dropped into a situation where violence is necessary to survival.

   Maybe it's a boring position to take, but I think a hero is something that just has to be defined really broadly. Heroes are products of their cultures and times. Who the ancient Greeks would consider a hero probably differs really greatly from what a modern South Korean would consider a hero - even if a basic "do good" thread runs through both conceptions. Therefore coming down with ironclad judgments about what is and isn't heroic or whatever is a bit like debating religion. Like okay you might not agree that Wolverine is a hero by your standards and that's cool, but intellectually you have to be able to concede that other people can both see it differently and be reasonable dudes.

5. 5 nick marino
   December 10, 2009 at 9:51 am

   what did we say about Bishop??? ahhh i don't remember! totally unrelated, i did buy a Bishop Super Hero Squad little action figure thingy last weekend. a sound purchase if you ask me (i mean, he came with the X-men-are-in-space-and-Prof-X-is-really-the-baddie Claremont / Lee run costume (when they were all wearing the same costumes) so i couldn't resist any longer). only thing is, i;m not sure if the action figure is from a dystopian future that's actually going to happen or if he's just from an alternate dystopian future. i'm really confused about that... and BTW thx kaylie!!!

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6. 6 ross
   December 10, 2009 at 5:40 pm

   zach: omg, best response. \m/

7. 7 Andrew Kilian
   December 12, 2009 at 3:37 am

   Ach! What a fool I am! I was thinking about Darfur not Somalia. Just the same there are outside interests manufacturing pressures within Somalia that result in a lawless state as it is with most destabilized regions. Of course it still returns to the same scenario one you would even find on Busty Ave in Buffalo. Can you be a pacifist and survive? If you are Superman and live in a Hyper-reality; yes. The world that Superman inhabits allows for it so it's the obvious choice. If it's Rick Jones in "Kahndaq" (not even sure that's right) well, Rick hadn't declared a major yet in regards, "to kill or not to kill", but probably not. Heck, you might choose death in real life because you're not equipped to kill.

   As for the point of iconic heroes, I was sticking to the premise of Idealised Comic Book Superheroes and their specific mythology. My point of context in that specific universe applies even to Beowulf (who, point of order, was not born of comic book origins) you wouldn't have him violating his mythology and doing something out of keeping with his story. I think generally speaking modern heroes, especially in movies, have to kill. In Superhero Comics if you kill you're not a hero you're an anithero.

   As a former Soldier I can say that most soldiers are just regular guys. The ones who go overseas return as regular guys who are now fucked up mentally or physically or both. I don't go in for nationalism or appeals to the saintliness of authority figures. I look at the specific person not the occupation because I've met cops who were good people and some who were former high school bullies. It's not applicable.

   I agree that my idea of a hero is not the same as someone elses, but the argument I was making was in regards to classic comic book superheroes ala Spiderman or Shazam.

   Is Wolverine a Hero? Technically he's an anti-hero as far as definitions go.

   The no killing rule as arrogance was Ross' point not mine. I don't agree with it so I don't need to defend it. However if all life is valuable then it's not arrogant to say I will never kill. It's a moral choice or virtue. Although I agree it's necessary to test that characters position as it makes for good character conflict and whether the character fails or succeeds is different than a comic book hero specifically deciding to have as his mission statement "I will not kill". If the character fails then no he's not a hero in the Spiderman mold. He shifts to the classification that fits that.

   Even with Licensing there are going to be artistic forays that breakout, but i concede the larger point that characters from the majors are stuck more or less in the mythology of their origin story.

8. 8 nick marino
   December 12, 2009 at 3:28 pm

   i like that - "stuck more or less in the mythology of their origin story." it's so true. it's elegant for streamlines serialized storytelling, but also ridiculous when you think about limiting it is. i would even venture to alter that phrase to say "stuck in the mythology of their own iconicity." sometimes origins change or fade in importance - wolverine isn't stuck in his origin so much as stuck treading water in some bizarre no-man's land between dangerous sex symbol with a heart of gold and short furry ex-murderer.

9. 9 neal
   December 12, 2009 at 11:21 pm

   wow, this mess is so meta, i thought pete must have been in here somewhere.

10. 10 Aaron M. Conley
    December 15, 2009 at 1:11 am

    Ultimate Spidey is not really for kids, I mean Peter is a teenager, but its pretty mature. I think its one of the best spidey books in a long time. I did read the drunk part recall, I think she actually said it was ginger ale. so lame.

    Love the cast guys!

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11. 11 Candace Marie
    December 30, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    I think the future of superhero comics will be chibi manga adaptations, lol. Have you seen the new Del Rey manga Wolverine and Misfits (Kitty Pryde) comics? Weird. Or Tiny Titans... which is adorable.

12. 12 nick marino
    December 31, 2009 at 12:10 am

    X-Babies!!! i always had a soft spot for them, especially cause it was always Art Adams drawing them.